War turn order

[Munro]

(OOC: turn order is dV & Fosse > DribNairb > Munro)

OOC: Turn order is going to be interesting - I'll try and play as soon as I can after Fosse but due to all the other wars going on I sometimes haven't been able to play until very near the end of the timer. We may have to extend it further. Sorry.

Sorry about the messy turn order.  It would be good if we could get to the situation at some point where dV, Fosse, myself all play either before or after Drib.

Drib - the easiest thing may be for me to double move you at some point (if I can be confident it will not impact game mechanics or outcome).  As you probably realize I have city visibility into all of your cities so I can probably be fairly careful not to gain any unfair advantage from it.  If you would be happy for me to try and do this if the opportunity arises, just let me know.

Alternatively, you could double-move Fosse and da_Vinci and start to play before them (as well as me).  However, that presumably also requires IanDC and your other allies to do the same, so will likely be a lot harder and more disruptive to co-ordinate.

Finally, we could just increase the turn timer.  However, that seems a little unfair to the other players and probably avoidable if you are happy with my just making a double move at some in the future when it is safe to do so.  (If you feel I have taken any unfair advantage from it when it happens I would be happy to volunteer my as-yet-unsued reload to go back and ensure it is done fairly).

Thoughts?

Capsavian - in the meantime, is there any chance you could increase the turn timer to 36 hours or so in the short term until we get this figured out?  (Once we have it figured out I would actually support a return to the straightforward 22/23 hour game timer to help keep things moving and keep turn windows predictable - though we can discuss that in a separate thread if needed).

Cheers,
Munro

[da_Vinci]

The other alternative is for Munro to take a "turn holiday" ... so that instead of playing after Drib in turn x, Munro plays before Drib in turn X+1. No one actually double moves anyone, it is just that the turn flip is repositioned in the Drib-Munro-Drib-Munro sequence.

The implication of that is that by moving Munro's play from end of X to start of X+1, Munro now moves after Drib's latest builds are realized, instead of before they are.

Now, if Munro is in position to attack Drib's cities in the curent turn, then the "turn holiday" has a major impact on that turn.  At a time when Munro would be several turns away from any of Drib's cities, a "turn holiday" has much less impact on the turn where it occurs.

Seems that a properly timed "turn holiday" could be the simplest fix.

dV

[Munro]

Good suggestion, but I'm not sure that's reasonable.  It would get us back in sequence, but all my units miss an entire turn where I am paying maintenance but they're not doing anything useful.  That doesn't feel very fair.

It should be easy enough for me to play back-to-back a few turns from now without getting any undue advantage - i.e. without doing anything that would not have been possible if Drib had been able to react in-between turns.  Providing Drib is ok with relying on me to make the switch fairly (with the option to use my reload if he has any doubt).

Would still be good to increase the turn timer a bit in the meantime since whatever we settle on will probably take a few turns to implement.

Cheers
Munro

[da_Vinci]

Good suggestion, but I'm not sure that's reasonable.  It would get us back in sequence, but all my units miss an entire turn where I am paying maintenance but they're not doing anything useful.  That doesn't feel very fair.

It should be easy enough for me to play back-to-back a few turns from now without getting any undue advantage - i.e. without doing anything that would not have been possible if Drib had been able to react in-between turns.  Providing Drib is ok with relying on me to make the switch fairly (with the option to use my reload if he has any doubt).

Actually, you are already in sequence, just you are not on the right side of the turn flip ...    

I am not sure how a "no undue advantage" double turn differs from a "turn holiday".  Of course, my definition of no undue advantage includes you not moving ANY of your units twice before Drib gets to move his once (or, at least not moving them any closer to any objective).  If you do double march in the "double turn", how is that not an undue advantage?  Even if you do not "move attack" or "double attack" or "attack retreat" in the double turn, won't double marching get you to a goal a turn faster (relative to Drib reacting) than without the double turn?

So if a "no undue advantage" double turn means all troops can't move (or at least, can't advance), isn't that the same as paying maintenence for troops not doing anything useful?  And if both NUA double turn and turn holiday have the same drawbacks, then isn't turn holiday more straightforward?

Drib and I were able to swap a double turn and a "double back" at a time when we were in a classic siege stalemate where the first one to advance loses ... no harm done.  If you and Drib get to such a point, it may not matter whether double turn or turn holiday is the mechanism.  But if the situation is one where fairness is based on voluntary restraint by Scotland, seems to me the turn holiday is less controversial.  So the question then is whether it gives Scotland any more disadvantage then a restrained double turn.

dV

[DribNairb]

Sorry I'm so late back tonight to play. You picked a right time to attack 

Anyway, I'm playing now so hopefully you can have your turn soon. Might be in the game a while though, I'm sure you understand!

As far as double moves go, I'm happy to swap round if neither side gains an advantage. I'm guessing the next few turns won't work out like that but then I can't see exactly where your units are - you're in a better position to know when it won't actually have any real effect.

It may actually be easier for the other suggestion of swapping turn order with Fosse/da Vinci mainly because very little seems to be happenning in that war at the moment. Of course, that might be about to change now you've invaded.

There's also the peace option - I'm still waiting for Maltman to rename his leader and we can all have peace

[da_Vinci]

There's also the peace option - I'm still waiting for Maltman to rename his leader and we can all have peace

OOC: Where is the fun in that?

dV

[Capsavian Hopewell]

I have bumped the turn timer to 36 hours, temporarily, due to the number of entities involved and desire to maintain correct and fair turn sequence.

Thanks for remaining gentlemanly about this, guys.

[DribNairb]

Where is the fun in that?
dV

Fun? FUN? This is war my good man. Lives are at stake. Where is the fun in that? 

[da_Vinci]

Where is the fun in that?
dV

Fun? FUN? This is war my good man. Lives are at stake. Where is the fun in that?  

OOC: See appropriate modification of my original post.

Undoubtedly, fun depends on whose lives are at stake, and who is winning ... 

dV

[DribNairb]

Munro - sorry for the lateness of my turn this time around. You picked a terrible time to attack from a OOC point of view!

Anyway, I'm playing from a slow computer/connection so I may login later when I get home to check a few things out, but I won't be moving any units which will have any effect on anything so feel free to play your turn.

daVinci - yes, I was assuming everything in this thread was OOC 

[Munro]

No worries, thanks for letting me know.

I'll probably be logging in to play my turn around 4-5 hours from now.

Cheers,
Munro