WMD

[da_Vinci]

Do i have to recall that the now missing Yourceanean king gave permission to the babylonian troops to occupy what was left of the territory of Yourcenae? You were in his court at the time , so you should remember...

Ricardo

Ruler of the land between the rivers[/i]

Ah, my dear Ricardo, I do recall, and you will recall that this permission came at the duress of our being attacked by other nations (in reality or via proxies).  You will also recall, that your occupation of Yourcenaean cities did not result in the preservation of Yourcenae, but rather in its evaporation ... it was a matter of chosing our conqueror.  So my statement that war was profitable for you at that time would seem to be correct, regardless of intentions.

But we digress, my friend.  What do you think of Woo Li's concern that a lasting peace requires some means to prevent The Founders from maintaining a proxy war by supplying their allies?  Woo Li, I have found, speaks with a wisdom that is after my own heart.  I think his concern to avoid a proxy war is well taken, and we Yourcenaeans have had first hand experience of that.

Leonardo, unemployed college professor

[Munro]

1) Ausburg, Tours, Mainz, Shovelnose and Ulm are to be gifted to the Carolignians.  We accept that only Ausburg is under your direct control (and should be gifted promptly).  Do you have any influence with your allies to encourage prompt return of these other cites without further bloodshed by all concerned?

Nations who follow The Path do not take orders from The Founders. All those who believe The Truth do so by themselves. Obviously our nations talk to each other through diplomatic channels but there is no leader, no Founders Alliance and no marching orders. This fallacy is something which has been propogated by our enemies to paint the illusion that The Founders are hellbent on destruction when in fact nothing is further from The Truth.

I will make a request, but I can make no guarantees. In fact, your invasion has probably reduced any influence I may have had with them.

Very well.  A good faith effort to ensure the return of these cities will be acceptable, provided that this also includes an explicit guarantee that you will not supply arms to any occupying nation should your earnest entreaties not be sufficient.  Fair enough?

(OOC: I have offered a cease fire in game; if you are ready to proceed, please go ahead and make the civics change, city gift and vassal offer this turn, and reparations once that's been accepted).

Said this, I don't see how the Founders can do much more than the Scots ask. How can a country that acepted defeat can force his ex-allies to unoccupy previous captured cities? ( OOC: really , even without the above argument, that is not so RPish as that, some of the "allies" of Drib are AI, for heavens sake.... )

OOC: though note that none of the leaders in question here (Grenlock, IanDC, Bjarkekr) are AI.

[da_Vinci]

OOC: Doesn't Drib need a cease fire with the other parties before he vassals to Viktor, or else it launches war between Viktor and us?  Or can than be undone without any 10 turn waiting?

dV

[Munro]

OOC:

Provided Viktor / Drib declare war first, then Drib capitulates, I believe Drib will automatically adopt the peace / war status of his master (i.e. peace with everyone).  Might be easier though if you and Fosse just sign a cease-fire with Drib first since the war declaration will impact their trade route bonuses and it doesn't really fit with the RP either.

TBH, it doesn't matter too much if that part takes a few extra turns to sort out - the city transfers, civics change and reparations are the more pressing and materially significant aspects.

[Capsavian Hopewell]

Right;  we ran into the issue of capitulation with a warring vassal in CC1;  in fact, we created a rule to outlaw such an act, as the game mechanics actually forces the peace/war status based off of the Master nation---I think that's how it works anyway.

Since we all know what's SUPPOSED to happen, I don't think it would be too terribly troublesome to allow Drib to capitulate and presumably a forced peace would happen then;  unless Fosse and dV disagree or find that it would bump their units somehow.

[DribNairb]

OOC: Exactly - the capitulation rule was to prevent forcing peace on a nation who didn't want it. If Fosse/da Vinci/Maltman agree then there should be no need to enforce declaring war everywhere just so that peace can be accepted via a Vassal agreement.

The question is - do Fosse, da Vinci and Maltman agree with the current deal on the table? I haven't seen or heard anything from Maltman in quite a while. And while Fosse seems to suggest he is ok with the deal, da Vinci's in-character talks always seem to be stirring up trouble in one form or another and I'm not sure whether it means he agrees or not!

[da_Vinci]

OOC: On capitulation/vassaling, remind me ... does how it affects war status depend on where it is a peaceful vassaling (forces peace on an attacker of the new vassal if master is at peace), or whether it is a captulation to an invader?  Or is it always an issue of forcing peace, and never an issue of forcing war?

Regarding Maltman, in PM traffic it seems he is OK with the terms of Munro's post 21.  He and Wei are currently vassals to Fosse, so a peace with Fosse would enforce a peace with those vassals, at least in the short term.

Regarding that "trouble-maker" da_Vinci, you must realize that da_Vinci is the OOC entity that is pulling the strings, Leonardo was the primary IC character for Yourcenae, and Woo Li is the primary IC character for Wei.  So any "trouble" being made is by either Leonardo, or by Woo Li, since trouble is an IC phenomenon.

Leonardo is, understandibly, still a bit bitter about the partition of Yourcenae, and so he won't pass up any opportunity to point out irony (like the new-found pacificsm of Scotland and Babylon, which is ironic, at least in his view).

Woo Li, also understandibly, possesses the rhetoric of a country at war.  You will note, that he did not object to what was stated in Munro's proposals, but only raised the issue of something that was missing.  If in fact some terms are present to prevent the Founders from waging a proxy war against Greece, Wei and/or Carolingia, then Wei and Woo Li are ready to go forward with peace with the Founders on the terms specified.

dV

[Fosse]

Greece finds the terms acceptable to enter full negotiations in good faith.  We have ordered our Generals to stand down against Founder troops.

We appreciate that we have finally come to a point where we may negotiate fully.  As the conditional terms seem to have been accepted by the five concerned nations, I invite DribNairb to send an Ambassador to the Greek city of Nuremberg, where our negotiating team awaits.

OOC: We're doing it.  Send us a group PM.  I think we have some terms to hammer out, and it's best to have our negotiating teams do so behind closed doors, without the posturing needed in this public forum.  There's more to discuss, I think, but it's clear we're heading in the right direction.

It is my intention to maintain the in-game "War" status until the Peace treaty is signed.  I don't think much of the in game Cease Fire option... which is basically "peace" without a time limit.  It doesn't allow situations where enemy units lay down arms but maintain their positions, for example.  It doesn't allow for small skirmishes that threaten to derail the process (I have NO intention of such sirmishes happening in this process!    ), and it all around feels sloppy to me.  I like the more old fashioned, "State of war, but we aren't fighting," gentlemen's cease fire.  I hope there are no objections.  Please forgive my mini-game-mechanic rant.   

The whole capitulation issue is completely okay with me.  The consequences of it would not be unintended at all.  We'll all be at Peace.

[DribNairb]

Regarding that "trouble-maker" da_Vinci, you must realize that da_Vinci is the OOC entity that is pulling the strings, Leonardo was the primary IC character for Yourcenae, and Woo Li is the primary IC character for Wei.  So any "trouble" being made is by either Leonardo, or by Woo Li, since trouble is an IC phenomenon.

OOC: Yes of course - I was referring to da_Vinci the user rather than any specific in-game character. Sorry for being confusing. But I'd forgotten you and maltman were Vassals anyway, so it's only Fosse that really has to agree anyway as far as war status is concerned.
I've just logged in and Fosse was there so we've agreed peace. I've offered capitulation to Viktor and made the necessary changes to civics and offers of gold.
We're hoping to draft a proper peace proposal but nobody seems to quite have the RL time at the moment. Please bear with us

[Fosse]

Draft proposal sent to all parties, in accordance with what's been tacitly agreed on here.

[IanDC]

The Arctic Nomads have offered the city of Ulm to the Founders for inclusion in their part of the deal.

[bjarkekr]

The french will also be part of this deal, and have offered the city of tours to the Founders to include in the deal.

We have offered peace to our adversaries.

[Munro]

What about Mainz.  I believe that one is currently under French control also but the dominant culture is still Carolignian?

[Fosse]

Mainz is Carolingian.

To the Nomads and the French: Our current negotiations do not have the scope to make peace with your two nations, nor the rest of the remaining members of the former Founder Alliance.  This is because of the involvement of Scotland and Agarthia, with whom you are not at war.

Thus, the need to pursue separate treaties with each of you, when it would be inappropriate to have those nations at the table. 

Do know, however, that the restoration of Carolingia is the primary, and a non-negotiable, element to such deals.  The preemptive cooperation on both of your parts will make these matters very easy to deal with, however.  Negotiations can be opened in earnest in any of our Embassies, or through private missives between your governments and the three Allied nations of Greece, Wei, and Carolingia.

The Founder control of the cities in question has been noted and will be considered in our ongoing, and rapidly progressing, negotiations.

Sincerely,
Fosse of Greece

[Capsavian Hopewell]

OOC:  turning the clock back to 22 hours for turn sequences, since it appears the war is winding down.

[Fosse]

Should be okay.  Turn order is still in effect, but no longer applies to Drib or Munro.

[Carolus Maltman]

Greetings noble rulers of the powers of our world,

I write to you from our hospitable encampment in the lands of our kindly brothers of Wei. We have attempted to send letters in the past, but in this war torn region most have been lost, and news about our people has scarcely been heard outside these camps. Our government has been in exile since we were forced out of our lands in the face of large invading forces, and our remaining women and children have spent many years in the wilderness and at war. Our people tire of war and yearn just to return to our simple lives in our Fatherland of Carolingia.

Our eternal gratitude is due to our brothers of Scotland from across the seas in a land we have never witnessed ourselves, for it is only through their intervention that a peace for all can be reached among our many peoples inhabiting our continent.

The people of Wei and Greece have been keeping us abreast of the discussions, and we are in agreement with all the terms discussed and agreed on by all the other parties.

We also thank our Greek overlords for all the assistance they have honourably provided our people over the generations. And of course our Weian hosts as well. Agarthia, we thank you for your role in the peacemaking process as well - and to the Founders and your allies, thank you for the good faith you have brought to the table on this day.

We look forward to our return, and pray that there will be cooperation among the allies of the Founders in achieving this monumental and lasting peace in our time.

Respectfully,

Carolus Maltman
Warlord of the Carolingian Dynasty
Rightful Emperor of the Carolingians in Exile

OOC:
We have received the first good faith peace and 150 GP from the Founders, but I think our vassal status is preventing us from receiving the regifted cities? Just double checked by clearing the vassal status, and Drib can't offer me any cities right now - anyone know why? Ian could directly repatriate Ulm, and bjarkekr Tours (former Aachen site), Grenlock Shovelnose, but Augsburg and Mainz are Founders cities. Of course if there are hostile troops in the area, then if I get them regifted they all of a sudden become a problem because they're exposed to your still at war with me allies. Now if those three were to cooperate with the process and make peace with me and return all three cities - then it would leave us in a much better position going forward.

[Carolus Maltman]

/

[Munro]

OOC: Looks like there is a game rule that prevents vassals from gifting away cities.  Not sure what the reasoning is... but it might be hard to work around, since Drib actually capitulated to Viktor.  I can think of 3 possibilities.

1) Carolus declares war on Drib, takes the (undefended) cities by 'force'.  Probably the least disruptive option.
2) Will the game let Drib gift the cities to Viktor?  If so, we could gift them to Carolus that way.
3) Reload.  (Can use mine if needed and if Cap will allow it).

BTW - I'm away this weekend so will be AFK for the next 40 hours or so (from now).  I queued up my moves but if there is a reload I won't be able to replay my turn or conduct any diplomacy either... (in case anyone is wondering ).

[Fosse]

OOC:  I'm guessing that Munro's right.  Lots of restrictive rules in this game.  I suppose it's to prevent vassals from giving away half of their empire to break free -- though nothing prevents them from receiving cities to break free.

I think the reload is the best option,  if number 2 doesn't work. 

But it the reload becomes troublesome we can stick to 1.

[Viktor Ahriman]

Lets just try to have drib gift the cities to me and I will turn them over to Maltmann.  Lets try that first instead of reloading.

Viktor

[IanDC]

There appears to be some doubt as to Greece agreeing peace with other followers of the path. In the event of the war continuing Ulm should be returned to the Arctic Nomads since it is only passed to the Arbitrator as part of a peace deal. We would ask the Arbitrator to retain possession of it until it's correct starting point is confirmed.

[Fosse]

There is no need to doubt Greece's sincere pursuit of peace withe the Nomads.  Our embassy is open to your ambassadors.

It is not appropriate for the Agarthians or the Scottish to have say over the peace agreement between the Allies of Greece and the Nomads, and this is the reason to separate the discussions.

We have never had a desire to fight with your people, and did so only to protect the Carolingians.

[da_Vinci]

Once the Allies of the Founders have returned the Carolingian territory as specified in the peace deal, there should be no obstacle to making peace, provided that is what the A of F really want.

Woo Li, Chief Monk of the Shaolin, Wei Dynasty

[IanDC]

Once the Allies of the Founders have returned the Carolingian territory as specified in the peace deal, there should be no obstacle to making peace

The Arctic Nomads see the same ambiguity in this as We did in the Greek statement - Give up the land then maybe peace. It is obviously not in the Nomads interest to give up the land without a peace treaty.
We are encouraged by just received news that Greece has agreed a ceasefire & ask that the Greeks state their terms for peace so that We can present them to the people for endorsement.

[DribNairb]

OOC: Looks like I can't gift the cities to Viktor either. Sorry, I should have read the posts more thoroughly, I thought Viktor meant he knew that a Vassal could gift a city to the master.

Obviously I can accept cities since Ian and Bjarke have gifted me Ulm and Tours. That leaves us with Munro's options:

1) maltman taking the cities by force (I don't know if that would raze any of the smaller cities?)
2) Can Viktor ask for the cities from me instead of me gifting them to him?
3) Reload
4) Wait until 10 turns are up, get out of the vassal agreement (if I'm anywhere near the requirements - I'm not sure how a Vassal can see if they are or not?) and then re-capitulate.

Sorry, if I'd know this wasn't possible I wouldn't have capitulated. But I thought that was the best way of proving we were serious as Munro didn't seem to want to accept my word on it 

I don't think anyone really wants to have to reload again, but unless option 2 works (I doubt it) the others don't seem very nice either.

[DribNairb]

Just thought of option (5) if it works:

5) Can Viktor demand a resource from me, I refuse and therefore it declares war? Then I can offer the cities as a new capitulation deal.

[Viktor Ahriman]

Well, I tried, but it doesnt even let me see your city list???  I dont know if its because its in that 10 turn thing or not.  Lets just see what happens after 10 turns, then we can see.  If not, then lets just have Fosse and maltman take the cities by force.  I dont want to reload.  Our military units will stand down and leave the cities for free taking.  But lets wait first.  I think its obvious that we are honest here and trying to make it work.

Viktor

[Fosse]

OOC
You can't end a capitulation vassalage unless you double in size or shrink a great deal.  I think that -- barring a reload -- having Maltman "conquer" the cities is the best bet.  Since he's my vassal, that means that Carolus can march up to the borders, I'll declare war, he can take the cities and we'll immediately sign peace.

Regarding Nomads, etc:  Cities, THEN peace.  Not cities then maybe peace.  As I've tried to say a few times, I don't have the time or inclination to RP two simultaneous processes of peace talks.  Real life is busy.  If you guys want to send us a Treaty though, we'll sign it.  Otherwise, wait until we're done with talks with Drib.  I've sent accepted Cease Fire offers to everyone who posted that they are turning cities over to Drib and Viktor.

Also... if those city handovers haven't happened yet, perhaps you can give them directly to Carolus instead?  Saves the "conquering" mess.

Last also... only size one cities with no culture border expansion will auto raze. Anything else should be fine.

[Carolus Maltman]

OOC: But won't taking the cities by force destroy yet more buildings, etc? As if that hasn't happened enough in my poor cities. We're not that many turns past a reload, are we? All it would take is one structured turn where I offer peace to Drib in return for the cities, then Drib accepts that, then Drib capitulates to Viktor. And the others could subsequently offer the cities directly to me for peace with Greece/me. If we'd done that turn order in the first place we'd have no problems here.

Alternatively, can Viktor release his vassal? Then do a new declaration of war and capitulation after we settle all this?

I dunno, I think a reload before we go any further would be the simplest at this point.