The young Greecians become intolerable

[Levgre]

When we were simple hunters and fishers, they did not have such desires.  Now, when they glance upon all the grand constructions they wonder what it would be like if they had buildings for their needs, and not with the purpose to educate, but to entertain.

"Now" the elder told the children, "It is fine for you to say your word.  But are you going to do nothing but sit there and whine?  You all have been given the greatest education and more land than you would ever need."

The elder's words struck the young boys.  They heard truth in it, and also took it as a challenge. Perhaps they could design their own construction for entertainment, possibly as majestic as all those boring scholarly and religious buildings.


The group of children left the old man in his room, and wondered how long it would take for all of them to make fools of themselves.

[oyzar]

OOC: culture slider with theater fueled SE is great when you are philo and have the mids and great library eh?

[Levgre]

asdf

[Levgre]

OOC: culture slider with theater fueled SE is great when you are philo and have the mids and great library eh?

Hehe, yup.  Only one cottage built so far(although still have trade routes and river tiles worked), so the commerce used into culture wouldn't amount to too much research... still about 30% of my gold/beakers though.  I am going to try to avoid using the slider as normal procedure... better to earn gold or beakers with it right now.  Might do 20% culture, for the 3 happiness, perhaps to work more specialists (don't have caste system or anything ;p can only run 2 scientists atm)

[oyzar]

Well get caste then... +3, +6, +9 , more is better right? Why do you have one cottage? If you are going to use the culture slider extensivly cottages aren't particulary good...

[Levgre]

OOC: I haven't lost much from not having CS yet.  It was only recently that I grew to my cap and got rid of slavery unhappiness.  Working mines for production is hardly a waste at this point, although just the last 6 turns or so I have resorted to using citizens (+1 hammer, +3 science) to hurry some research, instead of grassland mines(aren't very useful when you don't need the food, +1 H and +3 B is comparable to +3 H).  Still work plains hills over citizens.

So yeah, the last 6 turns or so caste system would've been nice to have already, but I figured I could afford to wait.  Smaller cities have started to borrow my bigger food sources, so I will be able to convert most of the food into scientists/hills and not have to resort to citizens w/o caste system probably.

As for cottages, if you want more commerce and don't have caste system, how else are you going to get it ;p.  Very early on they are nice to pump out a little extra commerce when you've reached your happy cap(out of plains river tiles especially I've found...), and later on if I ever switch out of caste system it will be nice to have some villages lying around. 

And even with caste system it is always better long-term to work food neutral cottages when you can, along with the specialists.  No reason not to.  A size 10 city working 3 cottages and 3 specialists is better than a size 7 city working 3 specialists.  This is assuming you don't have irrigation to farm all the grassland instead of any cottages... which I don't, for awhile.

But yeah, obviously I am using them very little thus far, all I have is one cottage, with 12 turns until hamlet. 

[oyzar]

Actually working 3 cottages more in that case cost you in the short term 51-48/2+54-51/2+57-54/2=27+29+30=56 food. that is equal to 28 specialists turns or 168 GPP and 168 beakers(before mods). It will take a while before those cottages pay for those beakers and those GPP's it'll never pay for(i dunno how many turns earlier next GP that is, but probably something like 5 turns which is at least 54 extra beakers, then another 54(probably less as you'll have more GPP per turn then) for the next GP and so on). It might work out in the very end if you decide to forgo using the culture slider and go into free speech later on, but somehow i doubt it...

[Levgre]

this was the case of staying at size 7 and working 4 scientists, or growing to size 11, working the 4 cottages, (size 8 1 spec., size 9 2 spec....). and +25% bonus in both examples.

Growing and working the cottages:

3822 beakers towards future tech
1056 GPP

turn 58 (normal speed... so 87 turns on epic... not the same amount of GPP and beakers, but proportional benefits)

the cottages are villages, with about 10-20 turns to towns, varying.

Staying at size 7 and working 4 specialists.

4490 - 1300 beakers =   3190 towards future tech

1392 GPP

turn 58


So + 430 beakers for the cottages, +392 GPP for the non-cottages... 65 scientist turns.


Working the cottages gives more beakers/gold.... here at turn 58, 430 extra beakers(after all mods of course... this was standard size world map, 1 civ in the world, 1 pre-req).  About 1 to 1 ratio so far for beakers versus GPP, and obviously improving as time goes on.  If I did 20% culture, I'd get 320 about... so at turn 58 it is just breaking even about with beakers versus GPP.  Some of that % would obviously go into gold too, but every gold given means extra beakers.


I wouldn't be doing this in the city which was going to produce the next great person within most likely 30 turns, or perhaps even the whole 58. it would obviously be best to work the cottages in any city which was not producing great people soon.  And the great scientists in this time frame (mid-game, medieval/renaissance) would be used for bulbing, not settling.  So the great person pop would not be as big of a factor.  I guess it is hard to figure out what the impact would be without case by case examples.  But it would probably not alter the 1 to 1 ratio much.


hmmm I noticed I wrote "always better when you can".  That was a pretty inaccurate statement;p, was just writing/thinking quick, should've been, when you can, meaning you have the non-irrigated grassland for it, and "it is reasonable to"... as we obviously know it is not better to work one earlier on in one of your cities popping any of the next 1-3 great people (like you said, when the 5 turn difference matters), or when you have an academy in the city... since you'd want those extra beakers at that point regardless. 

Although it is basically never the case where the academy is not in one one of your biggest GP producers, so these 2 considerations, popping a GP soon and getting 9 beakers per specialist, almost always come in conjunction.

[oyzar]

You are not counting the slider into this... What goes into gold doesn't get prereqmods or library modifiers... Since settling is the "worst case" using them for bulbing should give you more benefit(maybe not in the form of beakers but earlier tech -> earlier benefit as well) and hence more than the 54 more beakers per new great person i illustrated... At any rate as long as the city will pop a great person in reasonable time(meaning while they still matter) it will be better working specialists earlier instead of growing onto cottages...

[Capsavian Hopewell]

You two make my head hurt.  I'm going to go have a whiskey and declare war on someone.

[Bernout]

You two make my head hurt.  I'm going to go have a whiskey and declare war on someone.

OOC:  Amen to that!   Ummm...just don't declare war on me! 

Bernout

[Capsavian Hopewell]

OOC:  haha!  Somehow I *knew* that sort of response would be evoked, considering my history of drinking and pillaging.  Damn, I am a pirate! 

[oyzar]

snarlin is the pirate...

[Capsavian Hopewell]

I know, but he's next door to me.  Maybe the pirate nature is contagious, and is spreading by way of the shared drinking water?!  Oh, right, River Wrought flows downstream to Campeche.  And I mostly drink whiskey, and he "grog".

[Levgre]

Since settling is the "worst case" using them for bulbing should give you more benefit(maybe not in the form of beakers but earlier tech -> earlier benefit as well) and hence more than the 54 more beakers per new great person i illustrated... At any rate as long as the city will pop a great person in reasonable time(meaning while they still matter) it will be better working specialists earlier instead of growing onto cottages...

Well, sometimes I have a great person sit idle while I am waiting to be able to research the tech, or the tech isn't bulbed completely by the scientist so it makes no difference if you have it until you are 1000 beakers or whatever away from finishing the tech.  So yeah, bulbing gives you more benefit but a couple turns earlier doesn't always matter... and with proper planning never should for the earlier bulbed techs (phil, edu, PP, etc.)

If "reasonable time" also includes industrial era, then the cottage at that point will be producing 5 commerce, 7 with free speech.  So in the case case you would be compensated more, and the ratio for beakers/GPP would increase to 2:1 to more.

And every gold ends up giving you extra beakers you wouldn't have otherwise, since you have to pay the expenses before you use remaining commerce for research.  So while all the commerce from those cottages doesn't get bonuses, it still remains pretty close to the 1:1 ratio in the example I gave I believe, beakers/gold : GPP.




Caps, this stuff isn't confusing as it looks that is, if you have run a specialist economy before.   I had to for one of the GOTMs, before that much of this would've been gibberish.  So for example during Chaos and Civility 1 I didn't really know how to at all.  Still stuck to the cottages, which do work quite well ;p better, long-term too.

[oyzar]

Are you really going to run free speech? 

Also yes the gold is still going to be paid, though probably not by the same city(with a library and maybe an academy, though i guess eventually all your cities might get libraries seeing as you are creative and they are dirt cheap, even though putting them in commerce and production cities is largely a waste when you'll be running low slider / high culture).

@ Cap and bernourt: I wonder what is going to pay off in the long run, just smashing heads or doing the math :p.

[Capsavian Hopewell]

Caps, this stuff isn't confusing as it looks that is, if you have run a specialist economy before.

I'm vaguely aware of the mechanics, more or less, of the two methods, but with my tiny brain I tend to stick with cottage economies as they make more sense. 

@ Cap and bernourt: I wonder what is going to pay off in the long run, just smashing heads or doing the math :p.

Since my desire for entertainment outweighs even my lofty competitive drive, smashing heads wins out.  It's just more enjoyable than doing math.  Also, whiskey is tastier than algorithms.

If I wouldn't have ended up next to someone who thinks and strategizes so similarly to me, the points standing would be vastly different right now. 

I blame Bernout for the global credit crisis, too.  Just because.

[Levgre]

Since my desire for entertainment outweighs even my lofty competitive drive, smashing heads wins out.  It's just more enjoyable than doing math."

OCC: Lucky for me, i actually ENJOY the math ;p I imagine I would skip it if it seemed like a chore to me.  Although,wars are often more fun, but units are so expensive :/  so your period of enjoyment can be lower if they die off.

[oyzar]

After having wared an hour a day for almost a year i must say i am actually a bit tired of war! Gimme a good algorithm any day!

[Capsavian Hopewell]

LOL, ok, well in that case I salute you both, and leave you to your abacuses!