Chaos and Civility II - Game Settings

[Levgre]

Well, Animal husbandry is less expensive, so that is one difference.  It is less of a risk. Animal Husbandry is also nice because it reduces the cost of writing.

That is, any pre-requisite for a tech reduces the cost of that tech.  Writing is cheapest if you have priesthood, animal husbandry, and pottery.  It is most expensive if you only have 1 out of those 3, and between those two costs if you have any 2 of them.

The difference is about 12-16% less cost, per each of the 3 techs.

Animal Husbandry also opens up more techs than Bronze working, which only leads to metal casting (quite expensive) and iron working (also expensive).

If you hardly had any flatland it might not be worth it, with no animal resources.


So I would say it is almost surely worth it for Darius.     

[emperor]

That is, any pre-requisite for a tech reduces the cost of that tech.  Writing is cheapest if you have priesthood, animal husbandry, and pottery.  It is most expensive if you only have 1 out of those 3, and between those two costs if you have any 2 of them.

Yep, I've known for a while about the pre-requisite increasing the research speed by 20%.  I read recently that there was a cap at 40% though, and I'm not sure if that's true...?  (That would mean that researching 3/3 prereqs would not give any faster research of Writing than researching 2/3 prereqs.)

So I would say it is almost surely worth it for Darius.

Hmm, now I'm reconsidering my leader/civ choice... I didn't think that it might be possible to get Immortals instantly. 

By the way, one thing that just occurred to me: how does the religion race work in Advanced Starts?  Presumably since anyone can now choose to get Meditation and/or Polytheism on the first turn, then there will be several possible candidates to found the Buddhism/Hinduism, selected randomly at the end of the first turn by the RNG.  But doesn't that negate the value of having a civ which starts with Mysticism? 

[Capsavian Hopewell]

I was completely unaware of the prereq spending discount for techs, wow!  How could I have not known that?   

Yes, it's possible to purchase a religion from the start.  It's awarded completely randomly though if more than one player opts to try buying a religion.  So if you start with Mysticism you still have an advantage, as it costs you that much less to purchase the religion tech and still have money left over to actually use it.

[emperor]

True, I suppose... but still, Mysticism is an extremely cheap tech, so it's not much of a disadvantage to a non-Mysticism-starting-tech civ.  The main advantage in "normal" games is just the time factor - Mysticism may be quick to research, but a civ with Mysticism can always research to a religion faster than one without, due to the headstart.

It makes one wonder if the most expensive starting techs become the best ones under Advanced Start.

[emperor]

No Technology Trading

In the other (pre-setup) thread, you refer a lot to having "No Tech Brokering" (a significant difference from "No Tech Trading")!  Can I get a confirmation that it is indeed "No Tech Trading" in this game?

[Capsavian Hopewell]

In ChaosCiv I, Tech Brokering was not allowed, but Tech Trading was.

For ChaosCiv II, Tech Trading is disabled entirely.

This decision was reached as it was found that tech trading pretty much forces players into mega-alliances, just to simply remain competitive.  There are still going to be many (albeit more complicated) ways to assist your allies though, be it giving them units, money, or resources.

[emperor]

Okay, that's fair enough.  I've played in quite a few large-scale multiplayer Pitbosses before, and you're certainly right about most of them inevitably ending up as one super-tech-alliance against another super-tech-alliance.  It'll be interesting to try how no tech trading at all in a large-scale multiplayer game works, since I haven't been in a game with that before.  I suspect it gives a bit too much incentive to choose a Financial civ though (hence the disproportionate number of Huaynas, Dariuses, Willems, Ragnars, Pacals, etc). 

[Capsavian Hopewell]

Yeah, that is certainly possible.  That said, I still firmly believe that one's starting location (pure luck) and strategic/diplomatic abilities (an independent skill) will weigh more, given the nature of human-only games.

[emperor]

Oh yes, of course!  Diplomacy outweighs everything else in these games, I've found.  But still, Financial does give you that nice little boost which is (IMHO) unparalleled by any other trait in the game.  The only sensible reason (again, IMHO) for choosing a non-Financial civ is for the UU or UB.

[oyzar]

well, the advanced start doesn't really get you very far--especially with just 800 points.  I agree;  those earliest turns are my favorite as well, however with one turn per day, going without advanced start would mean a full month before you produce your first settler.  That's a full month of nothingness, to log in simply to click "end turn".  So, advanced starts are very useful in MP games.

The best way to learn how advanced starts work is to test it out in single-player, to be honest.  But a few answers:

* No, you do not see the entire map; just your predesignated starting location.
* Your log-in order makes no difference as to your starting location, as that's already randomly picked for you.
* Just as with normal starts, your starting location may be undesirable--but generally, it's good.
* Though experience is important, strategy, diplomacy and simple luck are probably even more important.  You can be a veteran player, but if you start in a bad location you can't really work your way out of that easily.

Give it a try, emperor--you'll probably find it to be less painful than you imagined.

How ecactly do you chose theese options in sp? When i chose sp i get no options for setting number of continents or whatnot...

[Capsavian Hopewell]

Set up a custom game in SP, and you have access to all options. 

[oyzar]

Set up a custom game in SP, and you have access to all options. 

Nope, for some reason i can't set number of continents, nor islands...

EDIT: o i found number of continents but not island settings...

[Sisiutil]

I sometimes play advanced starts in SP, and the only thing I'd add to Capsavian's excellent advice is to invest in a Worker rather than tile improvements. As with the techs and population points, investing in a Worker pays dividends for the rest of the game, and the Worker can provide you with that desired tile improvement PDQ.

The Advanced Start reveals more of the surrounding terrain than you see with a standard start. A red circle indicates where your settler would have been placed in a standard start; blue circles, as usual, appear as suggested "alternative" city locations. So if you always settle in place, plunk down your city on the red circle. But since you have more information than usual, have a look around first.

[Bernout]

The Advanced Start reveals more of the surrounding terrain than you see with a standard start. A red circle indicates where your settler would have been placed in a standard start; blue circles, as usual, appear as suggested "alternative" city locations. So if you always settle in place, plunk down your city on the red circle. But since you have more information than usual, have a look around first.

I've always made it a policy of just going with the recommended starting position because I believe the computer determines that based on all the nearby resources whether you can see them or not.  I don't know how many times, for example, I thought I was screwed for having metals and then lo and behold an iron source pops up in my capital borders when I get Iron Working.

Bernout

[Sisiutil]

I've always made it a policy of just going with the recommended starting position because I believe the computer determines that based on all the nearby resources whether you can see them or not.  I don't know how many times, for example, I thought I was screwed for having metals and then lo and behold an iron source pops up in my capital borders when I get Iron Working.

True that. On the other hand, if there's gold, silver or gems available for the capital's fat cross if you just move it a tile or so, it may be worth it. Either that or use your AS points for a second settler.

[oyzar]

I find that with the amount of points we have you can get 2 workers 3 cities and 1 tech, which is not very great but it is probably the best IF you have 3 good city spots, if you don't have 3 good city spots you are probably better off with 2 cities(or one city/settler) and get more techs / units instead. There are 10 turns of peace in which we can use to build units. So i think the default will be 2 cities and as such it might be better to claim the resources originally in your capital with two different cities, escpeially if this allow you to get more resources as well. With the limited vissiblity it is hard to see 3 good spots right of so you might have to gamble bit and you'll certanly get some overlap...

[Quotey]

A warrior takes about 22 turns to build so unless you want to cripple your early growth curve I'd invest in one/city. Does the turns of peace scale with game speed? I just feel sorry for whoever Native America starts next to.

Another thing to note is that creative leaders get a FREE border pop on every city. Awesome!

[oyzar]

Sure, but it isn't worth much(it is quite cheap to build). Working just one hammer title or just growing some pop warrior is quite alot faster than 22 turns :p. That said a warrior might be enough to defend obviously...

[da_Vinci]

My first trial runs of advance start will be tonight (last night was devoted to getting the mod set up and picking Pericles).

Here is a noob question or two ...

Do you get to spend the points after you see your start location, or before?

Do you have to spend all of the points at once, or can you hang on to them and spend them later?

Levgre's point about buying the means of production (Karl Marx, anyone?  ), not the product, makes a lot of sense ... and it harkens to the proveb about "give a man a fish" vs. "teach a man to fish".

dV

[oyzar]

My first trial runs of advance start will be tonight (last night was devoted to getting the mod set up and picking Pericles).

Here is a noob question or two ...

Do you get to spend the points after you see your start location, or before?

Do you have to spend all of the points at once, or can you hang on to them and spend them later?

Levgre's point about buying the means of production (Karl Marx, anyone?  ), not the product, makes a lot of sense ... and it harkens to the proveb about "give a man a fish" vs. "teach a man to fish".

dV

Buying fish isn't all that bad, but obviously you can't do it without fishing(but buying other improvements might not be all that smart...).. You have to spend all the points after you login, if you logout without spending them they will go to gold, any points you don't use will also go to gold(so hence it is actually more effecient to hold onto the gold than to buy techs if you have several cities due to modifiers(at least for non-starting techs), but it is obviously slower... You see an area uncovered quite alot larger than what you normaly see, you can settle cities in that area.. Settling at the border of the area obviously reveals what is outside the area..

[Sisiutil]

I have a question about the pattern of these games since I'm a newcomer to multi-player. Was the experience on C&C I much like typical multiplayer--that is, lots of early choking and rushing--or was there more attention paid to long-term play thanks to the role-playing? Or should I just be prepared for anything?

[oyzar]

You could run into both.. But in big game ffa ultimatly keeping a good to steady economy is going to win the game.. Good diplomacy with your neighbours can do away with some of the choking :p.

[Quotey]

I have a question about the pattern of these games since I'm a newcomer to multi-player. Was the experience on C&C I much like typical multiplayer--that is, lots of early choking and rushing--or was there more attention paid to long-term play thanks to the role-playing? Or should I just be prepared for anything?

I glanced through some of the archived threads and noticed some people passing by empty cities because tehy could forge an alliance later. I wouldn't be surprised if there were axe rushes go, but choking just seems rude, and I'd hope noone will seek to just cripple everyone around them.

[Capsavian Hopewell]

Given the nature of dealing with humans, "rude" acts like early rushes or choking will certainly give you a bad impression in the eyes of your neighbors.  So that early expansion certainly can come at a cost!

The roleplay focus unfortunately doesn't eliminate the potential for early wars though.  And even that, realistically, is not unexpected;  when tribal entities compete for the same preferred hunting grounds or arable land, there is bound to be strife.

[Sisiutil]

Okay, so it sounds like alliances are preferred, but early war/rushes are possible, while choking either with units or REX is considered "dishonourable". (See, I'm getting into the Tokugawa/Japanese mindset already...)

[oyzar]

Choking with rex aka blocking is not really considered dishonorable as that isn't really choking.. Oh and i am not sure i would pass up an undefended city, those villagers would need my protection after all :p.

[Capsavian Hopewell]

There were actually several instances of undefended cities in ChaosCiv I.  I know Levgre had two or three islands with zero defenders, all the way to the end of the game in fact.  I am more interested in trade and commerce though, than conflict.

[Levgre]

hah, well at that point any hostile activity would have gained international attention ;p  Plus I was ready to airlift units to those cities if I suspected something was going to happen.  Only problem is they couldn't airlift back

[Capsavian Hopewell]

That, and the fact it would have been too late, as anyone could have declared war and landed within the same turn, realistically.

But everyone loved you too much to do that, I think. 

[emperor]

I tried the mod out in single player with 29 players and it worked fine... can't work out why it doesn't seem to work in multiplayer for me. 

One thing that I noted though, even with 29 players it seemed like a lot of civs had quite a decent amount of expansion room.  There were a few continents with only 2 or 3 civs that could probably fit in 10 cities each without a lot of hassle.  On the other hand, there were a couple of cramped locations with civs that could barely build 3 cities all clustered together.