Chaos and Civility II - Game Settings

[Capsavian Hopewell]

The game settings for Chaos and Civility II, as the majority consensus seems to be.  Any objections or requests, please do post them; nothing is writ in stone.

28 players - using mod pack provided

Map: Hemispheres
Size: Huge
Climate: Temperate
Sea Level: Low
Era: Ancient
Speed: Epic
Continents Size: Varied
Islands Size: Islands
Number of Continents: 4
cylindrical map wrap

Simultaneous Turns
AI takeover allowed (in case a player quits, we can invite another human to take over)
20-hour turn timer (option to increase when more than two nations are at war)
No game turn limit
Advanced Start points:  800
Victory Conditions: Conquest, Domination, Cultural, Space Race, Diplomatic (all but Time)

Choose Religions On
No Technology Trading
Require Complete Kills
No Tribal Villages
No Permanent Alliances
Barbarians enabled (not raging though)
city flipping allowed
city razing allowed

[Matriarch]

This all looks good to me.  Hope we can get the needed number of players so we can start soon, as I am anxious to play.

[Quotey]

"City Flipping Allowed"- does this mean you will check "City Flipping after Conquest"? I don't like that option as it makes it difficult to hold on to gains if you make peace. Of course you may just mean you are not going to check no city flipping.

[da_Vinci]

Maybe I missed it, but will this be in 3.17 or 3.13?  I have a dual install so no big deal, but just want to know which folder gets the modpack.

dV

[Capsavian Hopewell]

Welcome.

This will be 3.17 with the mod provided. 

[oyzar]

Yeah i am also curious about the flipping issue.. Is it not flip after conquest or not?

[Capsavian Hopewell]

Good question, Oyzar, I hadn't thought to list that.  If an item isn't specifically listed above, then that means the default setting applies.  So in the case of No City Flipping, it's left unchecked (i.e. city flipping is allowed).

But certainly, if you have any feedback on any settings, feel free to bring them up.  I'm hoping the settings are at the point where they are acceptable to most of our players, though.

[oyzar]

Well i still really don't like vassal states as i feel they bring nothing to the game other than the oportunity for abuse...

[Capsavian Hopewell]

I'm not a fan of them, either, but the sense I got from the majority of players posting in the game settings discussion thread, was that they wanted vassal states left on, due to the benefits and accountability afforded the Master.

So long as we adhere to the rules regarding that loophole, we should be good.

[frobisher]

Well i still really don't like vassal states as i feel they bring nothing to the game other than the oportunity for abuse...

wait, found one: foreign trade routes despite mercantilism

[Sisiutil]

So goody huts are off, but random events are on? Interesting...

[Capsavian Hopewell]

Random events are fun and/or frustrating!    They make for some great RP storylines.

[Sisiutil]

Random events are fun and/or frustrating!    They make for some great RP storylines.

Ah, you kept them for the RP value! Now that makes sense.

[DMOC]

I am in favor of having vassal states off.

Just curious, but why was require complete kills on?

[oyzar]

For rp purposes as a conquest victory probably wouldn't be possible with that many players anyways... It was mentioned in the game settings discussion thread...

[frobisher]

After several warm-ups with mod I noticed "Islands" setting can place even several civs on relatively small pseudo-continents (those islands scaled to Huge map probably;) ). This way some of us may end with just one neighbour and only one choice left - to surrender to the "this island is too small for both of us" rule. Not a game-breaking problem probably, but it can either cause high death toll in first centuries with no real way of international involvement, or reduce gameplay of those to constant mutual arms race with seriously hindered expansion/diplomacy options.

I might be wrong on this one - could be just a series of unfortunate maps and strong seafaring civs should add much to the game so I wonder what was your experience with this issue.

[Capsavian Hopewell]

Frobisher, I suspect that whatever the choice of map, we will find a lot of early deaths due to the dense population.  It's an unfortunate fact, but yes, there is going to be a lot of luck involved.

For the island setting, we can certainly alter that--I was going to select "Islands" as that seemed to produce the largest islands, suitable for colonizing.  We can adjust that setting though, but I would fear that setting it to "tiny" will only exacerbate the problem.

[emperor]

Good question, Oyzar, I hadn't thought to list that.  If an item isn't specifically listed above, then that means the default setting applies.  So in the case of No City Flipping, it's left unchecked (i.e. city flipping is allowed).

Okay, so cities CAN flip to peaceful culture, but CAN'T flip due to culture after conquest.  (Which are both the default settings in a regular Civ4 game.)  Correct?  I just want to be absolutely sure here. 

[Capsavian Hopewell]

The settings will be "No City Flipping From Culture" and "City Flipping after Conquest" both left unchecked.

My understanding is that a city can still flip due to culture though, even if it was acquired by conquest.  Not sure on that one though--but regardless, the default settings as described above, will be active.

[emperor]

Advanced Start points:  800

Whoah... I didn't notice this before.  I've never played with Advanced Starts before, and I'm not really very keen to start now.  Why is the Advanced Start option used?  (How much does 800 points "buy", anyway?)  And what's the problem with the regular game, starting with just the regular Settler and Scout/Warrior?  

Besides the issue of not starting at square one with Settler and Scout/Warrior as in a "normal" game, I fear that another disadvantage will be that people more experienced with Advanced Starts will get a large advantage over people completely unfamiliar with them (like me).

[emperor]

My understanding is that a city can still flip due to culture though, even if it was acquired by conquest.  Not sure on that one though--but regardless, the default settings as described above, will be active.

I think the idea is that a city can't flip from a conquerer to its previous owner, but it can flip to a third party.  (Can somebody check me here?)

[Capsavian Hopewell]

Regarding Advanced Starts, I've explained a bit the thinking behind it: http://www.chaosciv.com/index.php/topic,251.msg1423.html#msg1423  You might find the rest of that thread helpful too, as I believe pretty much every single setting at this point has been chewed and digested thoroughly.

I know the settings won't appeal to everyone, but I aim to find the best balance to keep the majority happy, while always keeping the main objective in mind:  Chaos and Civility is a roleplay platform, not a "win-at-all-cost" game.

If you're new to Advanced Starts, I highly recommend setting up some test games in single player (in addition to logging into the test pitboss game), and mimic the game settings to get a feel for what you can purchase with advanced start.  Settings to keep in mind:

Huge Map
Epic Speed
800 points

With 800 points, you can plant 2-4 cities, and/or a few units (such as warriors) or you might purchase a tech.  At a minimum, I'd think you will want to plant a city and get a defensive unit.  The unused points are converted into gold in your treasury.

I think the idea is that a city can't flip from a conquerer to its previous owner, but it can flip to a third party.  (Can somebody check me here?)

 
That sounds about right, but I guess I don't know for certain how that works.  I've likely logged far fewer hours in Civ than most players here.

[emperor]

Regarding Advanced Starts, I've explained a bit the thinking behind it: http://www.chaosciv.com/index.php/topic,251.msg1423.html#msg1423  You might find the rest of that thread helpful too, as I believe pretty much every single setting at this point has been chewed and digested thoroughly.

Hmm, I guess I understand the reasons behind using Advanced Starts to keep the majority happy, even though I don't like it.  Those early turns are actually a lot of fun to me (meeting new civs etc).  I'll still play though, even though I much prefer the "proper" epic game experience.

I know the settings won't appeal to everyone, but I aim to find the best balance to keep the majority happy, while always keeping the main objective in mind:  Chaos and Civility is a roleplay platform, not a "win-at-all-cost" game.

I'm really not concerned about "winning at all costs".    It's more that I'll have the most fun if I can play in the game for a decent amount of time, and if I'm at a severe disadvantage then I've got a high chance of early destruction.  And that's certainly no fun, of course. 

If you're new to Advanced Starts, I highly recommend setting up some test games in single player (in addition to logging into the test pitboss game), and mimic the game settings to get a feel for what you can purchase with advanced start.  Settings to keep in mind:

Huge Map
Epic Speed
800 points

With 800 points, you can plant 2-4 cities, and/or a few units (such as warriors) or you might purchase a tech.  At a minimum, I'd think you will want to plant a city and get a defensive unit.  The unused points are converted into gold in your treasury.

Okay, I'll do as you suggest and try it out in single player.  Though I still think I'll be disadvantaged compared to someone who's played with Advanced Starts a lot and knows inside-out how to squeeze the most out of it.

As someone who's never even looked at advanced starts before, how does the initial position / city placement thing work?  Presumably you don't see the whole map (that'd be no fun), and can't choose to place your starting city just anywhere (otherwise the first people to log in would grab the best spots, again no fun).  Can someone enlighten me, while I haven't got access to Civ4 to check for myself? 

[Capsavian Hopewell]

well, the advanced start doesn't really get you very far--especially with just 800 points.  I agree;  those earliest turns are my favorite as well, however with one turn per day, going without advanced start would mean a full month before you produce your first settler.  That's a full month of nothingness, to log in simply to click "end turn".  So, advanced starts are very useful in MP games.

The best way to learn how advanced starts work is to test it out in single-player, to be honest.  But a few answers:

* No, you do not see the entire map; just your predesignated starting location.
* Your log-in order makes no difference as to your starting location, as that's already randomly picked for you.
* Just as with normal starts, your starting location may be undesirable--but generally, it's good.
* Though experience is important, strategy, diplomacy and simple luck are probably even more important.  You can be a veteran player, but if you start in a bad location you can't really work your way out of that easily.

Give it a try, emperor--you'll probably find it to be less painful than you imagined.

[emperor]

Okay, it doesn't sound quite as bad as I feared.  I'll give it a shot. 

[Capsavian Hopewell]

I promise it won't kill you! 

Well, unless you log in while taking a shower.  But if you do that, you probably have other problems to worry about.

[emperor]

You've got nothing to worry about.  I only ever log in while taking a bath. 

[Levgre]

I could post some strategy tips.... that I am in process of learning ;p I haven't done many quickstarts myself.

Here are a few starters:

On huge maps techs are more expensive than normal, while workers, cities, population, and units are normal price.  So be wary of how much you spend on techs.
It does give you the tech quicker, but as is much of the time the case, the player who starts out the game building base production/beakers will overtake, in research and production, the one who spends it on something (techs) that doesn't give constant production.
Of course, if you have cows and pigs you need the tech to access that production, and you don't want to be waiting 20 turns to be able to build pastures because of the longer research times... improvements on resource tiles trump pretty much everything else early on.

Bronze working is quite a risk because it is so expensive, and unless you have lots of food to use the slavery civic, you could not get anything out of it(no copper).  But it could be worth the gamble, if you have a really good early copper unit, or if you have lots of tiles that look like they could have copper(like, lots of hills, not so many forests).


Another tip, keep in mind what cities need when you decide to improve them.  If they have lots of hammers,like a copper resource, don't build a granary or monument since that city can do it on its own.
Likewise, don't pay to pump up the population of a city that grows fast on it's own.  You are only paying to avoid a couple turns of lower population.  Improve the population in the slow growing city instead.

The real cost of food and hammers in different cities is not equal, to put it shortly.

[Capsavian Hopewell]

Those are great tips, Levgre.  I'd agree with each of them, and in my practice runs, I've tended to only add population to those cities who were lacking for usable food resources (i.e. they would grow to pop #2 too slowly). 

I never increase a city's population beyond 2, even if they look like they might be a slow grower. 

I never increase the capitol's culture, as it will expand on its own due to the presence of the palace.

Whether any of this is good advice or bad, I don't know!  It's what I do, though.

[emperor]

Thanks Levgre, that's a lot of help.  

Bronze working is quite a risk because it is so expensive, and unless you have lots of food to use the slavery civic, you could not get anything out of it(no copper).

What do you think about choosing Animal Husbandry without any livestock around, just for the chance of Horses?  Is that worth it?  (Almost certainly, I'd imagine, if you're Darius.)